Elroy's Family Values....
Family Values- by Elroy
"The following is a parable of Jesus as applied to the "family values" debate going on in Colorado and around the nation. It's the same story as in the Bible except modern people and problems have been substituted for the situations of Jesus' time.
In Mark chapter 10, Jesus just finished saying you should love "your neighbor as yourself." At this, a "certain lawyer," wishing to "justify himself," asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
And, starting in verse 30, Jesus said to him, "A certain mother was going down from Colorado Springs to Denver; and she fell among a deadbeat father and the high cost of daycare, and they stripped her and beat her and went off leaving her half dead.
"And by chance a certain leader of Colorado for Family Values was going down on the road, and when he saw her, he passed by on the other side.
"And likewise the leader of Focus on the Family also, when he came to the place -- on his way to get his hair done for a film project -- and saw her, passed by on the other side.
"But a certain gay man, who was on a journey, came upon her, and when he saw her, he felt compassion, and came to her, and bandaged up her wounds, pouring comfort and opportunities on her, and he put her in his own car, and brought her to an inn, and took care of her.
"And on the next day he took out two hundred dollars and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of her, and whatever more you spend, when I return, I will repay you.'
"Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the mother who fell into the robber's hands?
"And he said, 'The one who showed mercy toward her.' And Jesus said to him, 'Go and do the same.'"
It's important to note that in the original, it was a Samaritan who stopped to help a man beaten by robbers. What we don't often recall, however, is that Samaritans were the despised, godless half-breeds of Jesus' day. Good God-fearing Jews would rather walk around Samaria than through it. When Jesus used a Samaritan as his hero, he picked what most Jews saw as the enemy of righteousness.
How true these words ring today. Once again the leaders of our great religious organizations are avoiding the needy on their way to make speeches, books, radio programs and laws. And the true good neighbors are the very people our so-called religious leaders despise."
Clarification
Ok, TS, I'll try to explain myself a bit better.
I've always pictured (and been taught) that Jesus served as a bridge between us and God. He was like us, yet directly connected with God in a way that no human before him ever was. I noticed that when you stated Jesus took upon himself our sins, yet again he doesn't really get touched by our sins. And it really makes me wonder if God himself really understands what it's like to BE a sinner.
You are right, if Jesus was just like us and sinned, he would not be God. But that ALSO would have to mean that Jesus WASN'T like us, either. So often we get that kind of reference (Jesus is just like us) but he COULDN'T be. Do you see my confusion now?
So how could God expect us to be capable of finding our way out of sin? How can God understand the difficulty in repentance? And because he doesn't understand, how can he really help? Is this why there is such an emphasis on tradition and ritual in the Jewish faith?
Through Jesus we have life everlasting, ONLY IF we are found sinless by way of forgiveness or repentance. Jesus was capable of remaining sin-free because as you stated he had the ready help of his father, God. But we certainly don't seem to have the kind of help Jesus had. So how do WE relate to a God under conditions far more difficult than Jesus himself endured?
Hope that helps....
The Deacon caves in....
You know, I'm very disappointed. Here the Deacon has been speaking as an AUTHORITY since he came on the boards, but now when offered questions of substance and challenges, he does the equivalent of a 5 year old and storms off with a pouty face.
Want some cheese with that whine, Deacon?
What was that Deacon offered just a little while back? Oh yeah :"May I add that this, in my view, is the worst aspect of this forum. Frequently, posts do not ask legitimate questions. Rather, statements are made in rhetorical format for purposes of argumentation. As a result, little effective communication occurs."
Don't you think, Deacon, that when you REFUSE to offer your viewpoint to keep the 'communication' going, you cut off all communication? You really aren't looking for 'effective communication'. You're looking for an audience of people who are easily impressed by credentials. You're looking for sheep that can be sheared. You won't find it here and you're mightily outclassed and outgunned by our fair former PREACHER Elroy. I don't agree with every essay he's written, but I can tell you all of them are well-written and thought provoking, which is why I suspect you ran like the coward you truly are. You are AFRAID of challenging those beliefs of yours, or considering that what you know might be in error. At least I can admit that I may be wrong in what I believe to be the truth. Your ego clearly won't allow for that in you.
We've all got you pegged dead to rights Deacon. Now go home to mommy.
The creator of evil
And the creator of evil, by definition, MUST be evil.
unthinkable alternative?
"Evolution is unproved and unprovable. We believe it only because the alternative is special creation, and that is unthinkable."--Sir Arthur Keith, who wrote the foreward to the 100th edition of Darwin's book The Origin Of The Species.
Amazing admission yes? Evolution must be accepted on blind faith. But a building proves that there is a builder. Creation proves there is a creator! That builder is God.
Swine like us don't deserve his pearls
Elroy said:
"Wow, in one sweeping pious ploy you've managed to create a rationalization that keeps you from needing to answer the vast array of critiques and questions leveled against you by those you've pushed and shoved in your short stay here.
If ever there was a time when a saying was apropos, I'd say "You can dish it out but you can't take it" definitely applies to you Mr. Deacon. Are you going to kick the dust off your feet as you leave the Faith Forum?"
I was thinking last week that if it weren't illegal, we should start a betting pool on how long it would be before the "Deacon" bailed!!
Bright Blessings!
Word of the Day - Poltroon
Nightingdale - what a great word! It sort of rolls of your tongue doesn't it? Thanks.
See Jason?
People like Teresa are such egomanic dogmatists that they simply cannot admit what they BELIEVE are BELIEFS.
Apple you indeed missed the boat
I thought you were done talking to me? Was that a lie?
You don't read to well either. I stated plainly when I posted to Jason What Apple means is..
Read what I said to Jason again Apple. I was telling him what it is you would like Deacon and I to believe.
Teresa
TS: "And since the Scriptures were written by fallible men, when scripture tells us God's laws and opinions as well as showing us His character we should accept that it is just an opinion that may or may not be true."
SG: So you finaly, after all these years, admit that your beliefs are just beliefs and not something you KNOW?
Jason 2
If you go back and read every post I have ever written on this forum, you'll notice that it's the people who claim to KNOW for a FACT that they not only KNOW God, but KNOW his opinions, his character...etc,
What Apple means is that we quote the Scriptures. The Messiah tells us we can know God as he knows the Father but we should not believe him on this. And since the Scriptures were written by fallible men, when scripture tells us God's laws and opinions as well as showing us His character we should accept that it is just an opinion that may or may not be true.
that THEY are one of Gods chosen few, while the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of human beings are going to hell, that I have problems with. In other words, anyone has such a gigantic ego as to claim that they KNOW the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" concerning what God wants of us. Obviously, I'm refering to people like Deacon, Teresa...etc.
Well now Apple is just lying here. Neither I nor Deacon has claimed that we are one of God's chosen few, while the overwhelming majority of human beings are going to hell. Shame on you Apple.
one more thing Jason
You said that some of the things I say about Jesus and Christianity are "hard for a believer to hear" because they're "so intensely personal". Yes, I would agree, they probably are. But think about this. According to your belief system, anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus will spend all etenity burning in hell right? Well, how do you think that makes THEM feel? Wouldn't that be "hard to hear" and "intensely personal" to them? Anyone who is a good, honest, caring, loving...etc, but not a Christian, is going to burn for all eternity in hell? If your a Buddhist, and your dead mother was a Buddhist, and if she was a good, kind, loving, caring, honest...etc, person, and Christians are saying she's, at this very moment, BURNING IN HELL, wouldn't you take that personally? Do you see what I'm saying?
http://www.BIGOTelroy.net/ehr/index.html
To Deacon S. How does anybody know if Jesus was "straight"? Of course there a many different versions of him marrying and going to southern France,India. etc.
Jason2
Jason, there's no reason for me to "pick you apart", and let me tell you why. I respect you for being HONEST and admitting your beliefs are, in fact, beliefs. If you go back and read every post I have ever written on this forum, you'll notice that it's the people who claim to KNOW for a FACT that they not only KNOW God, but KNOW his opinions, his character...etc, AND that THEY are one of Gods chosen few, while the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of human beings are going to hell, that I have problems with. In other words, anyone has such a gigantic ego as to claim that they KNOW the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" concerning what God wants of us. Obviously, I'm refering to people like Deacon, Teresa...etc.
Other people on this forum claim beliefs as well (Elroy, Lynn, mirabelle, Nightingale, Sharon...etc), but they don't claim their beliefs are something they KNOW; they don't claim their BELIEFS are, in fact, Gods opinions or beliefs--and that's the difference. And even though I disagree with them on some of their beliefs, I respect them because they are honest enough to admit they are just their "beliefs".
Take the time to read my debates with Teresa and Deacon over the last week or so. You'll see what I mean. They're the most fundamentist "Christian" believers on this forum, and they have the biggest egos and are the most dishonest, evasive, and manipulative. All I'm doing is pointing out how un-Christian they truly are.
You, on the other hand, at least have the humility to admit your beliefs are beliefs, and that you're not Gods personal spokesman (or spokewoman). And as long as you remain that way, I'll have no reason to "attack" you or "pick you apart". I welcome hearing your beliefs and opinions no matter how much I may disagree with them, because that's how we learn and grow as human beings.
Rebuilding on past failures...
I don't understand your thinking here Mirabelle. You need a God that sins like you? That would be no god at all if that were the case. The Scriptures say "the wages of sin is death." It is through the Messiah (our high priest) we are recociled back to God and have eternal life.
A high priest had to identify with the plight of his people and the Messiah as human in every way, being tempted as we are, meets that requirement. "So that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make a sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb. 2:17).
The book of Hebrews gives a detailed explaination of the atonement sacrifice. Just a recap: The high priest goes into the holy of holies only once a year with the blood of the sacrifice and sprinkles the blood on the altar and on the mercy seat (ark of the convenant) for the sins of Israel and for the sins of all mankind and the use of a scapegoat sent to Azazel( Israel's sins were placed on this goat that was sent into the desert; "Thus the goat shall carry on it all their iniquities to an inaccessible region.."(Lev. 16:21-22). ).
Now the Temple, as are the holy days, shadows of the true. This is why Moses when building the tent of meeting was told to be careful to follow the pattern in heaven that he was shown.
The Messiah did not need to go into the holy of holies every year but his offering was "one sacrifice for sin for all time" (Hebrews 10:12). He went into the holy of holies in heaven and presented his offering in the true Temple. "But when Messiah came as a high priest ... he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.( Hebrews 9:11)
Our past sins were passed over. He took the penalty the law required for sin. He took our sins upon himself and died in our stead. But through him we have life. In the like manner that he was resurrected so shall we be when he returns.
